Dan Berger an economist and leadership expert. He’s also President the CEO of NAFCU, The National Association of Federally Insured Credit Unions. There are some great hacks and lessons from Dan including:
- How focusing on culture and wellbeing drives results
- Why hiring slow and we firing fast stimulate the right attitude and supports aptitude
- Sharing more of who you are builds relationships (including on his Harley Davidson)
- Be thoughtful how people receive your communication especially electronically
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The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: Most of us would agree that empathy is an essential ingredient in leadership. In my book, Leadership Cake, empathy is in fact the “E” in C.A.K.E. and the lack of this essential ingredient became a talking point on the 9th of February when it emerged in an article with the Guardian newspaper, calling out that KPMG boss and Chairman Bill Michael had urged staff to stop moaning about the effects of COVID-19 and get on with their jobs in a staff video called the previous day, recordings of which soon made their way online. Bill Michael had also gnashed his teeth at employers saying they were playing the victim card with regards to current working conditions and also rallied against his own firm’s inclusion efforts by saying. “There’s no such thing as unconscious bias, I don’t buy it. Because after all, every single unconscious bias training this firm has ever done, nothing’s ever improved.” How ironic is that? Huh?
Shocked and confused and reverberated through KPMG’s workforce. Mr. Michael issued an apology saying, I’m sorry for the words that I used, they did not reflect what I believed in. I have apologized to my colleagues looking after the wellbeing of our people and creating a culture where everyone can thrive is a critical importance to me and at the heart of everything this firm does. However, a few days later, he next his resignation, with a senior elected board member being a matter of replacing him as chair. Michael empathy gap sparked a significant amount of controversy across the world and across the press with Gemma McCall, head of a bullying prevention software firm called Culture Shift told the guardian. “Leaders really do need to take heed and exceed expectation when it comes to creating a safe and supportive environment for all employees.”
News of Mr. Michael blunt embracing staff called coincided with the Financial Times publication of Redis feedback, highlighting a wave of pandemic burnout that has hit the papers audience of white-collar professionals. Based on anecdotal responses from 250 readers from around the world, the FT’s piece laid bare the strain of the past year as employees trying to struggle with their work-life balance and often would their leader’s responses not particularly well align. A reader named Julie explained that she had suffered palpitations in the first 2020 lockdown compounded further by worries of her husband being stuck at work overseas. In addition, she wrote resources provided by her employer failed to address her workload saying. “I received no support or help for the projects I was expect to deliver, as strict deadlines and no extra time to deliver them.” When Julia herself eventually caught COVID-19. She had work through her illness and that situation that had to endure it protracted two-month recovery. So as leaders remember, people are our biggest asset and their health and wellbeing are essential to you. If you really want to drive great customer experiences, deliver revenue and grow your business. It’s not unnice to have activity. Adjusting expectations, flexing the working day, extended deadlines and whatever can be done to make people’s working loads a bit better and a bit more manageable should be top of any leader’s agenda right now. So, if we find ourselves getting grumpy for not delivering the performance we expect from our team, it’s important to take stock and recognize by stepping into the shoes of those that are working for us, truly understand their concerns and their experiences. Otherwise, we create our own empathy gap. And one thing we can be certain of. It seems like Bill Michael got that wrong, didn’t he? That’s been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any stories, news, insights, please get in touch.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Dan Berger is our special guest on today’s show. He’s the president and CEO of NAFCU, which is The National Association of Federally Insured Credit Unions. He’s proudly advocating for the $1.5 trillion dollar credit union industry in the U.S. along with its 122 million consumers. Dan is also an economist, a leadership expert and an author, but delighted that we have him on The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Welcome to the show Dan.
Dan Berger: Thank you, Steve. My pleasure.
Steve Rush: It’s been a while since you and I last met. What I’m keen to really kind of understand from your perspective, and to get us a bit of a summary for our listeners is the backstory to how you’ve arrived at being the president and CEO of NAFCU. How did it all start for you and where did it all come from?
Dan Berger: Where it all started was growing up in Gainesville, Florida, and just always was a political junkie, worked on political campaigns and in the U.S., politics is genuinely a who you know type of industry. And it just kind of builds upon itself and you get people elected to different positions. While there was on the local basis or state basis or the federal level. You start developing a pretty serious network. And the more people, you know, from a networking standpoint where you can educate elected officials or public officials, your value grows as an advocate. I was a lobbyist, I was hired as a lobbyist up here in Washington D.C. And then I was hired as the head lobbyist of NAFCU and then the board appointed me CEO seven years ago, and that’s how I got this seat.
Steve Rush: Awesome, and I guess what you do now requires an enormous amount of politics, but in a much more of a different sense; can you see the parallels from the traditional political sense that you’ve been in before to what you do now?
Dan Berger: What I do now, it’s an expanded role. It it’s it like three-dimensional chess, it’s that perfect convergence of policy and politics and business. Yes, there’s the lobbying component, you know, lobbying the white house and the Congress and the relevant regulatory agencies. But there’s also the business aspects of running a trade association. I mean, we’re a $30 million dollar business. And so just because we’re a nonprofit, we still have to have revenue and income to keep the lights on, so we can continue to advocate and educate you know, the public officials and the elected officials. So, it’s just a perfect convergence. It’s just no dull moment. Everything’s exciting, especially now I’m sure everybody has seen it around the world.
Steve Rush: Indeed.
Dan Berger: What we have gone through in the United States in the last several weeks. One of the stranger environments I’ve ever been in, in my 30 years as a lobbyist. But no, it’s been a very interesting couple of months.
Steve Rush: And how that shape the landscape for the conversations you’ve been having with your members over the last, say three to six months with what’s been happening politically as well as economically around the World?
Dan Berger: Yeah, from an advocacy standpoint, nothing’s changed. We are a non-partisan organization. We have Republicans and Democrats and libertarians and socialists and everybody, we lobby everybody. We’re (A) political in that standpoint. So, no matter who is in control of government or Congress or the Oval Office. We always have the ability to lobby, we’re educators and we educate them on the effects of, you know, regulation or laws that they pass. So, it really doesn’t matter who gets elected or who gets appointed. And so, we’re always prepared from that standpoint. From an economic standpoint, things will change. Whether it’s a tax policy you know, more regulatory burden for our members. Sometimes tends to occur under a democratic controlled Congress. So, it’d be interesting to see how that shape out, but we’re prepared no matter what color, stripes are being elected.
Steve Rush: I know from the last time that you and I spoke, you were really passionate about that whole disrupting the credit union space. Where did you start with that? And what’s been the main thing that you’ve seen that’s been the biggest disruption that you’ve bought about as a force of good?
Dan Berger: For a force of good. We really want to focus on having the legislative and regulatory landscape. The environment being capable for the credit union industry to grow, because in turn the credit unions that I represent on the national level, they serve in turn 122 million American consumers. And so that’s a lot of responsibility. So, you want to create an environment for these financial institutions to be able to serve. Whether it’s a better FinTech and online banking, or, you know, less regulations. So, they don’t have to spend all those resources, whether it’s money, time, people. And on the regulatory side, that they can focus on truly helping their members and helping their communities.
Steve Rush: If you at the world of credit unions, non-for-profits, versus the corporate America or the corporate world that we live in. What do you see as the things that are consistent, that you would see across all the businesses? And maybe what’s the one thing from a leadership perspective that is really far out there and different from yours?
Dan Berger: From a leadership perspective, we preach improving the culture. And I don’t think it just for nonprofits or trade associations, I believe strongly a strong culture will work in the full profit realm as well. If you take care of your staff, if you focus on their wellbeing and having the tools and resources necessary to do their jobs well. In term, they help your members or help their customers or your customers really well. You got to focus on that culture. And when we talk about culture here at NAFCU in our organization, we talk about hiring for attitude and aptitude. We can get you the training, you can have the skillset, but if you’re a jerk that does not feed into our culture, we want people with that passion and enthusiasm to help credit unions. Because they know where the best alternative in financial services, the best banking services are provided by credit unions. It’s not the big banks, it’s not the payday lenders or some of the other predatory lenders out there. It is institutions that were created to take care of the American consumer. And so, if you focus on culture, you take care of your employees in turn, they take care of your customer or your member
Steve Rush: That whole passion and fire in the belly has been an interesting subject that lots of people have tried studying over the past, but it’s one of those things that you can’t really train. You can provide the right environment to flourish and grow and develop that passion. You can’t actually train it. So how do you go about identifying that in potential recruits that you look forward to joining the organization?
Dan Berger: We have a series of various questions, almost case studies or scenarios and how they react to those situations or those challenges or problems that have been presented to them, really dives down. It’s not the initial question that you ask in a potential employee. It’s usually the next follow-up question or two that you kind of drill down and get granular with. And you can almost hear those trigger phrases you know, that they respond back to you and you’re like, you know what, that might not be a fit for our organization. And if you focus on hiring those with that passion and that enthusiasm to be a team player and to help row. Internally we have part of the review process, employee review process, we have what’s called an organizational citizenship review that goes through, how do you play in the sandbox with your colleagues? And that kind of culture. I mean, it really makes a difference and, you know, Steve, you know people. You could give them a billion dollars and they will still be grumpy. There’s just nothing you can do about it, it’s the DNA. We just know people like that. And they tend to be a cancer on an organization. So, we work real hard. We hire slow and we fire fast. And so, we want the attitude and that aptitude, and it seems to work. We’re not perfect by far from it, from any stretch. I think we’re doing a pretty darn good job. But that focuses on our culture is what I think is really strive, has really allowed us to grow and be a better organization.
Steve Rush: And you see that with the way that you’ve evolved as an organization too Dan. So, you’re one of the early adopters if you like of that innovating space in the credit union space, where you’re looking at FinTech’s and innovation and new ways of working, is it different than if I’m in an organization where I have shareholders versus members, how do I encourage my membership that’s the right thing to do with their money versus my shareholders?
Dan Berger: No, I don’t think it matters. The makeup of the organization, because if you focus on staff, your shareholders are taken care of, you know, your customers are taking care of. If you hire a group of employees that aren’t passionate, that aren’t enthusiastic about helping your company grow or helping your customers become better, it has an effect on the bottom line. It has an effect on the bottom line of in a nonprofit, it will definitely have an effect on the bottom line of a for-profit institution or company. When you walk into the lobby at NAFCU, we have a big sign on the wall, and it says our staff is our most valuable asset. And the thing about it is, you can’t just put a sign in the lobby and just say that.
Steve Rush: It’s true.
Dan Berger: It doesn’t mean anything. It’s like buzzwords, it’s like sticking up those motivational posters around the office. It has to be authentic, the leader at the top, has to be the management team, really singing from the same song book of having that, you know, hey, we want people with really good attitudes and smart, and have the aptitude to learn. We want the enthusiasm and passion to make our company or our association stronger and better, but more importantly, help our members become better, help our customers become better. And in turn everybody benefits, it’s that rising tide raises all ships kind of a theory.
Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely so. So, from your perspective Dan. If we took a leadership lens over this, how do you think the role of a leader is going to change post pandemic as we come out of the way that we’ve done things in the last 12 weeks?
Dan Berger: I think we’re early adopters to teleworking here at NAFCU. And it’s worked out really well. We pilot it and tested it and invested heavily in the digital infrastructure here. I like to say it was because we were pressing it for the pandemic, but it was actually done for weather related situation. When I became CEO, we had a five- or six-foot snow storm and it shut down all of Washington DC, that shut down NAFCU. And I was like, we can’t do this. So, we need to invest in a digital infrastructure. We have to invest in the technology and the laptops and cameras and headsets and all that kind of stuff. My board of directors saw that vision and really was very supportive of making a substantial investment in it. And so, when the pandemic hit, I guess March 13th, we shut down. We pivoted and we were digital. We were virtual within 24 hours. And so, it worked out extremely well, where you saw a lot of companies and a lot of associations here in Washington DC that spent months trying to get up to speed, spent months researching and investing in the new technologies required. We were already willing to go and warring to go.
Steve Rush: Great strategic thinking.
Dan Berger: Sometimes, you know, luck is, you know, luck is a real thing, but, you know, the harder we work and then the more we strategize and try to be prepared, the more luck we seem to have.
Steve Rush: Exactly, it’s the old adage, isn’t it?
Dan Berger: Yes.
Steve Rush: So, one of the things that made me chuckle the last time we met; you have this huge personality and energy that comes with you, Dan, by the way of which I’m sure our listeners are starting to get into, but the one thing that really made me chuckle, you’ve been known to turn up to your business meetings, riding your Harley Davidson, leaving your members aghast as to “here’s this guy on a Harley and his leathers.” What kind of response do you get when that happens?
Dan Berger: Sometimes it surprises some folks, but usually they not too surprise. But yeah, my wife and I went out to, we have a big motorcycle rally here in the States called Sturgis. And you have, you know, a million bikers show up in the small town in South Dakota. And what we did is we just rode around and visited credit union CEOs in a few of the States in the area. It was great. It was well received. It’s a way for me to ride my motorcycle and to be genuine. It’s who I am. I enjoy riding my Harley and the reception’s been pretty positive.
Steve Rush: Awesome, so what do you think the reason is that more of us don’t do away with that tried and tested corporate image and be more of our authentic self? What do you think stops us doing that?
Dan Berger: I think it stops some people from doing, and then I think you see people who’ve had tremendous success being authentic. You know, on your side of the park, Richard Branson. I mean, tremendous, he’s very authentic. He, you know, walks around in his flip flops. Of course, it’s in his private Island in the Caribbean.
Steve Rush: Sure
Dan Berger: But it’s, you can be authentic. You can be genuine, but you still have to be professional. And I know when to be, you know, the Dan Burger on the Harley, but I’m also know when to, you know, put a sport coat on or the environment I need to show respect to an elected official or a public official and wear a tie. I think it’s just common sense, but for me, it’s who I am. I love to fly fish. I love to ride my motorcycle. And so that’s authentic. It’s just me. It’s what I do. And occasionally I share that image and in terms of executives, there’s kind of a borderistic urge for people to learn more about their leaders and the CEOs of companies and associations. And if you get a peak of your authentic self, I think that it helps with engagement and it helps with connection because there’s others out there. Like, you know what? I always wanted to ride a motorcycle. I also ride a motorcycle or, you know what, I too love to go fly fishing. And so, there’s that personal connection you’ve kind of developed as well.
Steve Rush: Yeah. I think the pandemic has also helped with that, hasn’t it? The fact that we narrow Zoom in or MS Team in or whatever medium you use. There’s an opportunity here to show a bit more of yourself and, you know, your study at home or your kitchen or your lounge, and that in itself creates that intimacy that perhaps has been lacking in the past.
Dan Berger: Yeah, it’s kind of a double edge sword and it’s like, yeah, you can create, you know, a view into people’s kitchens or their dining room. I’ve actually set up a studio in my house, in my office. It looks exactly like the one I have here at our headquarters. Just to eliminate that. So, it looks a little more professional, but we also talk about it, you know, know your audience, you know, there’s times that you can, you know, wear a hoodie and be very casual and stuff, but here, hey, we’re a business casual organization and just use your best judgment. And so, we’ve had that discussion, because there’ve been instances where someone’s wearing a torn-up sweatshirt, you know, and it’s not an appropriate attire from that standpoint. Yeah, you want to wear a sweatshirt? Wear one that’s, you know, nice. You know, so you convey a professionalism. Just because you’re on Zoom and it’s a relatively informal presentation or informal video conference call. You still have to do it through a filter of, you know, let’s be professional because your image is the image of the organization. So, it kind of does matter. But you know, it’s all part of the new Zoom, Microsoft Teams environment.
Steve Rush: It is, for sure. So, what’s next on the agenda for you and for NAFCU?
Dan Berger: Well, for us, we have a new president (in the US), as you know, we have a new Congress that is, Democrats are in control of both chambers of Congress. And so, all the appointments of all the regulatory agencies that we are concerned about and that we work with very closely, they’re all getting new staff and stuff like that. So, for us, so we’re been already talking for months now with the transition team of President Biden administration and that’ll continue to go, we’ve got new members of Congress we’re talking to, we’ve already had meetings with the White House, you know, meetings with folks on Treasury, The Federal Reserve, The NCUA or Prudential Regulator. And so, all those meetings continue to happen. It doesn’t happen in the environment that I like, because it’s done on Video conference calls. I much rather have a meeting in person. Because you just get that feedback. I quite frankly enjoy interactions with my fellow human beings and to do it, you just can’t really do it appropriately. I don’t think in develop really close relationships online or on video conference calls. It’s a good way to maintain a relationship I guess, but I think you can’t, be an in-person contact,
Steve Rush: So, you’re going to have a busy summer on the Harley? Then I sense.
Dan Berger: Yeah, typically I travel about a hundred thousand miles a year. Of course, last year rose, probably one 10th of that and you know, planes, trains, automobiles, and occasional donkey. And of course, my Harley, I like to get out and see the CEOs of our credit unions and see the members because you get the feedback. And quite frankly, they spend a lot of money to be members of our association and they deserve that high touch. We got all the high tech and that we talked about earlier, but that high touch, to be out there to be seen, to find out what’s keeping them up at night and how we can be of help. That’s just done in a much better environment when we see them in person.
Steve Rush: Yeah, so this part of the shows where I get to turn the lens on you and hack into your great leadership mind. So, where I’d like to go first Dan, is to just explore. If you could distill all your years of experience into your top three hacks, what would they be?
Dan Berger: Take care of your staff, invest in the technology so your staff can be more effective and inefficient and then probably lastly, take time off. That’s probably the biggest thing I’ve learned throughout my career that almost all the successful leaders that I talked to, that I read about that I learned from, they all take time off. And then for me, that’s fly fishing, for me, that’s riding on my Harley. It’s me spending time with my wife and daughter, but that last component. I work long hours as you do. And a lot of the leaders and CEOs that are listening to this, but you have to take that time off. You have to re-energize and I feel great when I come back after a weekend of riding my motorcycle or fishing. I’m rejuvenated, I’m raring to go. Those are part of the top three that I mentioned.
Steve Rush: Yeah, great. It’s interesting, the last one you mentioned Dan. So, we run a program where we get people to think of themselves as corporate athletes. And if you think of the premise of an athlete, track and field or whatever discipline you have, they always, always, always after the event, will take time out and recover. Yet, it seems that it’s only recently that our global corporate life and this whole philosophy of recovery seems to play in, and it’s not a reward. This is an absolute essential activity to be a successful leader in the future, right?
Dan Berger: Yeah, and I would add a fourth to that Steve. I would say exercise, I think you have to not only put your mental state and have some self-care involved in relaxing and taking some time off and getting some downtime and, you know, putting in your smartphone in the drawer and just deep disconnecting for a while. But you have to exercise as well on a regular basis. I lift weights and my wife and I walk two or three times a week, but that kind of stuff’s extremely important as well. I think it’s a full experience of being a leader. You have to continue to want to learn. I mean, I’m reading new books all the time as you do, I know, and news articles, I’m always constantly trying to be a sponge and learn new things then reinforce things I may have forgot or reinforce things I knew, but haven’t thought of in quite some time, but yeah, I think comparing it to athletes is spot on.
Steve Rush: Awesome, so the next part of the show we’ve affectionately become familiar with is called Hack to Attack. So, this is where typically something hasn’t worked out well, it could be personal or work, but as a result of the experience going south, you’ve taken a learn from that and it’s now positive in your life and your work. So, what would be your Hack to Attack?
Dan Berger: How I communicate and I had an executive coach earlier in my tenure named John Spence. He’s an author and he is a business.
Steve Rush: I know John very well. He’s been on our show too.
Dan Berger: Oh, terrific. Well, John from our hometown of Gainesville, Florida. But he was my executive coach and he still helps us and helps me, but he really helped me with my communication and I’m an extrovert and I’m high energy and I’m go, go, go. Sometimes I’ll have a tendency unintentionally not to come across. I’ll be direct, I got so much stuff on my to-do list. I’m going to check off each day and everything. I have a tendency sometimes to come across blunt or direct, and I don’t mean for it to be, but you have to put yourself in the other person’s chair, you’re receiving it. Also, I got this one-line sentence, hey, where are we on the XYZ project? And it’s like, not a hello, not a good morning. You know, it was just, hey, I got a lot of stuff to do. Just give me the answer so I can get on with my day. And I learned early on that EQ in your communication matters and I’ve got EQ throughout everything else and aspects of my leadership and management style. But my email communication, I had to really transform and spend a little time, you know, you do it. I manage by walking around, this whole environment is really kind of messed up for me, but we celebrate little victories and large victories and high fives and fist bumps, but you can’t really do that electronically. And so how people receive your communication specially electronically matters. And that really helped me a lot because I still have to work at it. I still have to take a deep breath before I hit send to make sure that it’s okay. Not because of the content of it per se, with the issue or topic I’m trying to get answered, but just the approach to it. I work on it every day, Steve, every single day.
Steve Rush: The fact that it’s conscious for you is really quite healthy because we’re all innately built in a certain way. And we’ve created habits and behaviors that are innate. And yet, sometimes we need to make sure that we get rid of some of those things that don’t serve us well, but we play on the things that do. And as long as we’re conscious about that, we’ll be successful.
Dan Berger: I agree completely.
Steve Rush: Dan you let us into the secret. Where was the moment that you thought I need to fix this? Has there been a belter of an email you’ve sent somebody that you’ve thought oh-oh?
Dan Berger: No, it was an employee survey.
Steve Rush: Which is the best way to get any feedback, of course, because it comes in volumes then as well, doesn’t it?
Dan Berger: Oh, it really does. And you got to have it. And they’re right. And it’s not intentional and it’s not me being gruff or I’m being grumpy and we all have those kinds of days. And I understand that it’s just at the time, it just so much on my plate. I’m trying to check all this stuff off. I want some information on certain things we’re working on so I can give it to our board of directors, let’s say, and it’s just, you know, you can spend another minute or two and drafted an email, say, hey, good morning, Cassie. Appreciate your work on this. Can you give me an update and where we are? Are we still on target to hit the 5:00 PM, Friday deadline? Let me know, thanks. It’s the same email. It took you 60 seconds longer to type it and it makes them feel appreciated and in turn, all part of the entire culture we’re trying to create here.
We’re a fast-growing company. Our bus runs fast. We talk about it. We want to make sure the right person is on the bus. The right person is in the right seat on the bus. You have to take a deep breath and say, hey, how I’m communicating with people, put yourself in that chair. Okay, you’re a 24-year-old, young lady, young man. And the CEO of the organization just fired off one sentence question to you. How would you like that or not like that? I mean, and it scares some people you know, we all have insecurities. And so why magnify that for some poor colleague of yours, that makes no sense. And so, I have to work on that.
Steve Rush: Yeah. So, the last thing we’re going to do with you today Dan. Is give you a chance to do some time, travel and bump into Dan at 21, and you get to give them some advice. So, what would your advice to Dan be?
Dan Berger: I think who tried to become 1% better every day. I think when we’re young, we have a tendency to have these really huge goals and want to hit grand slams and everything. But if you just get incrementally better every day, say 1% every day, those small improvements over a period of time or more satisfying, they have longevity, and I think that’s the part in it. It took me probably into my thirties to genuinely understand that. And I try to do that now, whether it’s, you know, reading, I got a news aggregator, I read every morning on my treadmill. I read the news; I’m trying to gather all the information so I can be better executive. I read leadership and management books on a regular basis. So, I can become a better supervisor or a better leader just that 1% every day. What did I do today? Become 1% better in any aspect, as a husband, as a father of a 16-year-old daughter, I’m trying very hard to become 1% better all the time. That’s what I would have told my 21-year-old.
Steve Rush: Yeah, that’s great advice. It’s the laws of marginal gains, isn’t it?
Dan Berger: Yeah, it really is. And it’s really helped me focus. Because everybody, especially in this environment, now, Steve, as you know, it’s just the instant gratification and the pat on the back and the awards and everything else you get when you hit those grand slams and stuff. But I have found the one precent theory gives you bigger rewards and more success than really focusing on those big, big projects and big challenges and awards and stuff. It seems to multiply itself even faster and further and has more longevity.
Steve Rush: Yeah, I agree. So, Dan, if folk want to find out a little bit more about the work that you do with NAFCU or indeed find out a little bit more of how they can connect with you and learn from your leadership lessons, where’s the best place for us to send them when we’re done?
Dan Berger: Oh, nafcu.org and of course on LinkedIn at Dan Berger and love to hook up with anybody that’s listening.
Steve Rush: Awesome, we’ll make sure that we put links to NAFCU in our show notes, as well as your LinkedIn profile, so folks can head straight over.
Dan Berger: Thank you, Steve.
Steve Rush: Dan, listen, it’s been absolutely brilliant chatting. You are a passionate guy and I’ve loved the times that we’ve spoken together. And you know, if you can continue to just grow 1% between now and the next hundred days, what a wonderful place this world will be. So, thank you for being on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Dan Berger: Thank you, Steve. You’re a gentleman and a scholar. Have a great 2021.
Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers.
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