Dr Kerstin Potter is an Executive Coach with over 30 years in international business the private and public sector, She is the Founder and CEO Visual Metaphors at Work
- What the difference between metaphors and visual metaphors?
- The unconscious thoughts and neuroscience triggered by visual metaphors,
- How visual metaphors express themselves in situations they find difficult.
- It’s not about being a leader of – but a leader with.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: How can use in the news today, we explore how we can control our brain for optimal functioning, that mighty three-pound organ that sits in amongst our skulls. How do we get that to work for us instead of against us? When we are preparing for significant events in our careers and our work, we tend to focus on preparation. For a big presentation to do we practice until we get comfortable. If we have an interview for a new job, we’ll practice some research so that we understand what the obvious questions might be. When we take this approach however, we’re only doing half the work of being effective and successful.
How often do we take time to prepare our brains? What do you do to ensure that you keep that pivotal organ in the game? Not just your body in actions, it’s fair to say that physical preparation is what controls the brain, but there are specific things we can do to ensure that our brain is as prepared as our body for those important career situations. Let’s dive into a few areas. Thoughts play a massive part in how our brain is used. Truth is, we can manage emotions, but it starts with controlling our thoughts. Every emotion we experience comes from a thought which occurs consciously or unconsciously. Then we experience one or more emotions based on it. And if those thoughts don’t serve you well, it can be pretty destructive. You might find yourself getting into a Whirlpool that takes you away from the work that you’re at distracted, and therefore will reduce your opportunity for peak level performance.
The hack for brain training here is to be thoughtful around whether or not your thoughts are helping you move forward, or they’re going to hold you back. Take the time to consider these thoughts and replace them with data by asking yourself specific questions. These questions can help you replace the thoughts with information that could be really helpful. An example could be consider how many times you’ve given a successful presentation and then do a quick mental scan of what it was that helped you accomplish what it was that you set out in that presentation. What were the things that helped you? Do you have evidence to support your experiences, aligned your education, your previous jobs and your career accomplishments, all will give you data to reinforce your capability in order for you to do a great job. And when you provide your brain with evidence and data, it doesn’t have to do the hard work of finding the information to fill the uncertainty, but reminding your brain, you have the skill sets to take on the task that you have the background to be credible on the topic.
Your brain will create the right emotions that align with these thoughts, replacing anxiety with confidence, the power of words is a really important hack to continually evolve and build brain power. As a professional, you’re like to be aware of the power of words. It can be used to motivate, demoralize, strengthen, undermine. But how often do you think about the words which you use on yourself? Yourself talk. Such words might be conscious ones that you say to yourself, as well as the unconscious words that whisper around in your ears when you’re thinking to yourself. The problem here of course, is that words create thoughts, thoughts create actions. So, these words have to be the ones that serve you well. And I’ve been quoted in saying before, this is the voice in your head that you wake up with. It’s the one you go to bed with, and it’d be the last one you hear before you die.
So, it has to serve you really well. The heck here is to avoid the words that don’t serve us well. And there are a few examples could be, should, have to, need to, must have, which create thoughts of you not doing enough or not being enough. They may experience feelings of guilt or put you under a position of pressure. To avoid creating an internal climate of negative thoughts and emotions. Replace these pressure words with power words, such as, want, will, do. Instead of telling yourself, you should going to work to review X, Y, Z, use the words I will. Changing the pressure word of should to will and want. Shifting the focus from my making a mistake to building confidence puts you back in control of your thoughts and emotions and builds brain power. And with the hacks that we’ve shared so far, we’ve talked about the thoughts that are creating actions in the way that we do things.
These all stem from mindset. When you work on a project for your organization, do you plan to start and only complete 50% of it? Of course, you don’t, but this is a metaphor of how we’ve been engaging our brain when it comes to preparation for our professional roles. Overall, how you function is your choice, it’s a mindset. You can determine what thoughts you want to encourage to create beneficial emotions, your mindset related to create the thoughts you need to get you closer to big performance. And that mindset will allow you to decide what words will generate the right behaviors and actions that align with you achieving your goals. And you can tell your brain where to focus and in doing so unlock the results that you want. These simple strategies and hacks will help your brain become a better tool for you and remember mindset triggers, your thoughts that triggers your behaviors. That’s been the leadership Hacker News, we’d love for you to share your stories and insights with us so please get in touch.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Joining me on the show today is Dr. Kerstin Potter. She’s an executive coach with an enormous amount of international experience of over 30 years in leading both private and public sector businesses. She’s now the CEO of Visual Metaphors at Work. Kerstin, welcome to the show.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: It’s great to be here. Thank you.
Steve Rush: I’m delighted that we’ve got you to come on our show for two reasons. One, the first time that you and I met, it was a kind of a bumping into visual metaphors. And then subsequently I’ve been coached by you. And it was an enormous experience for me. And I just wanted to get our listeners to feel how that might have been for them. But before we dive into the whole notion of what you do, let’s get to know a little bit about you. What’s your backstory?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Right? Well, I was born in Sweden, and I spent my early childhood there. And then when I was 13 years old, my family moved to Switzerland. I was placed in a convent school where only French was spoken. And I didn’t know where to French at the time. And my family wasn’t religious. So, I didn’t understand any of the rituals either. So, I felt very much as a mute, you know, for six months I had to really get by, by looking at how people were acting, what they were doing and the tone of their voices and so on to try to understand what was going on. And at the beginning I made many mistakes and didn’t really get it at all. And then I got better and better at really looking at what’s going on around me. And after six months, I was ready to then with my French to start the normal school. But I think with hindsight, that time of newness was what made me really interested in how people work and operate and listening and looking at people in that way. Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the life and culture in the French part of Switzerland. So, I stayed on there and trained as a scientist by reading chemistry at the University Lund. I was interested in how a scientist mind worked in the observation experimentation, looking at feedback from systems and then making changes and looking how that worked. I then had a brief interlude in Sweden, reading history of art. This is where images came in, I think. And this was really because I needed to see Sweden or this culture of Sweden from the viewpoint of grownup, rather than a child, because many people were asking me about Sweden, I couldn’t really answer them.
After that brief interlude. I then went to the UK to do a PhD in chemistry, in Cambridge. And this was really to get myself or make myself a better scientist by training in actually doing real research work. After I had finished my doctorate, I joined a pharma company AstraZeneca as a graduate trainee. I think I went into this with some detail because I think this is the pattern of my career really is trying to move on into a different and new industrial or business area. And at the same time change country, because I really enjoyed the learning and the new culture.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: The new cultures I encountered. So, I carried on in that pattern. After working the pharma industry, I moved back to Switzerland as part owner of a startup, and that was specializing in mentalized textiles for high precision printing and also protection cages for electronic equipment. So, a completely different area again. I then spent three years with Nestle in food ingredients, six years as management consultant in Germany. And then I moved back to the UK, setting up European safe effort for high tech consultancy. Again, in Cambridge, I was back made a complete tour. I then moved on to become director of Executive Education at Cass Business School in the city of London, the school specialized in finance. So again, I walked into a new area for me. This is also where I was first asked to act as a coach, particularly for me for women who moved in from outside the UK into the higher levels of management in the city of London, I thoroughly enjoyed coaching. I mean, this was, again, something completely new to me and I felt I needed to become more professional here. So, I trained as an executive coach at HEC Business School in Paris. I wanted to do this in Paris rather than in the UK, because at the time UK coaching was very much influenced by the US. And I also wanted to see how a different culture was working with coaching. And in addition, I also knew that in France at the time a team coaching was very important, and people were very interested in how this could work out. That hadn’t really started yet in the US and in the UK. So, this is where I then really started as a coach, as a professional coach.
Steve Rush: So, one of the things that just rung a bell with me is, you were talking about that Kirsten, is that the kind of whole notion of cultural backdrop of coaching. Do you notice that there is a kind of a difference between different cultures in the way that we coach and are being coached?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, we have a different attitude towards power in different regions of the world. We have a different attitude to how we communicate in general and also the sort of careers, because executive coaching is about coaching people in their business careers, the way you look at your careers and what is important is completely different.
Steve Rush: So, from the time that you became a professional coach, how did you end up with Visual Metaphors at Work?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Well, I’ve been part of teams and I’ve been responsible for teams during my whole career. And I was starting to become really frustrated and worried. By the way that corporate culture and office politics get in the way of change and growth both at the level of the organization and the visual. So, this is where the team thing comes in. When I remembered some pioneering visual metaphor work carried out by Professor Angela Dumas at London Business School. She used images and objects to help teams reveal tacit knowledge and promote deeper conversations and trust within the team. I came across though when I was working with this high-tech consultancy in Cambridge. She’d been mandated by the consultancy to kick off a series of workshops for a client in Finland. This was an engineering company producing giant paper making machines. And they had acquired a smallest Swedish company.
Directors and the management teams from both organizations were to meet for the first time to agree on a common strategy for product development and service development. And Angela Dumas had been asked to pick off this whole thing using her images and objects. I was very worried because I don’t like putting people into boxes, but I think it’s well known that Swedes and Finns are not particularly talkative. And adding to that a group of engineers having to face up to images and try to talk about them. I was worried that it was going to be a complete disaster. I didn’t know whether I was actually going to be there and see this big car crash or whether it would be better for me to just keep away from it. But yeah, my curiosity took over and I ended up joining them all. It was in middle of the winter. It was very dark in Finland, very cold. And Angela Dumas took out her bag of tricks, showed all her images, asked her questions, et cetera. And I was absolutely amazed. After 10 minutes, she had these people talking together in a very constructive manner and having fun at the same time. And they ended up with some really strong decisions and ways forward that they actually acted on, which I thought was amazing. So, when I had finished my training as a coach, then as a team coach, I remembered what had happened there. And so, I contacted Angela again to see what had happened with her methodology, her visual metaphors, et cetera, and unfortunately, she had been very ill and had to leave London Business School.
So, I ended up sitting by her bedside and then we took walks together, slow walks together in the park as she was in convalescence and listened to her talking about her research in the area, watch she’d done, the experiments she’d done. And I was also going through her paper asking her lots of questions. So, after that Angela and I decided to start a company together, which is now Visual Metaphors at Work. We set it up in Dubai in 2012. And we started working on developing the Lephorus to be a coaching tool for coaches, facilitators, and executives and companies to have some coaching experience to use with teams and we call this Lephorus. Angela then decided to retire in 2014. And I’ve been carrying on the work since then.
Steve Rush: This leads us to this point, right? So now you have your organization, and you are inspiring different coaching conversations using a really neat and different talk. And before we get into that, let’s just for our global audience. We have 94 countries that listen to this podcast. So, on that basis, let’s start with metaphors. For those that might be less familiar with that English phraseology, metaphor. What does that mean?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: We humans have been using metaphors for a very long time, indeed, and young people or young children from the age three or four, understand them without any problem at all and they exist in every culture. So, for example, we say time flies to show that time may have a direction for us and that it can go past very quickly in a flash. We also say time is money. We have hourly monthly wages. So, we paid for the time we spend at work or the time we give to the companies where we are working for our work. And also, if we do something wrong in society, we pay our dues by spending time in prison. We also say time heals. So, these are different ways of framing and reframing the quite complicated concept of time. Using metaphors like this is a way we have developed able to actually get a handle of complex concepts and to talk about them with others. Scientists use metaphors a lot in order to try to explain to each other what’s going on in their experiments and so on, for example, I mean, say atoms bumped together, they don’t, but it’s very helpful to describe it in this way. There are also other metaphors like gestures, and also there are sound metaphors, for example a rooster crowing in the morning could indicate a new start, a new beginning. So that’s met metaphors in general, and then there are visual metaphors and visual metaphors are images. We say an image is worth a thousand words, for example.
Steve Rush: Another metaphor as well.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Yes, exactly.
Steve Rush: So, I remember when you coached me, the thing that made the real difference for me in using metaphors is it helped me unlock my unconscious thinking. And when you coached me, you were using words around a situation. So typically, it would start with, let’s talk about this situation and I want you to look at these images. And I remember you saying, look at the image. What do you see? What do you notice that similar to that situation? And on the face value, you look at an image and you think, well, it, can’t, here’s a bunch of colors and shapes and directions, or here’s a chair that can’t be possibly similar to the situation I’m in, but actually when you allow yourself to be present and in that moment and think about it, you can start noticing some patterns and some similarities. And that was the one thing that really intrigued me about this whole process. So, for me as a coachee, what’s actually happening there?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Well, actually when I talk to people and it’s interesting the words you’ve been using there, what people say is that when you see the images you seem to have an instant reaction to these images. It’s a more like a gut feel. You know that bit is important to me, but you don’t know why. They then say they try to process them intellectually, so there’s an internal conversation. And then they go back to the instant reaction, the gut feel they had in choosing one particular image in that situation. So, it’s not really very reasoned. It is a gut reaction, you know, does that make sense in what happened to you?
Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely. What’s quite ironic is we’re talking about visual metaphors on a podcast, which is an audible means of communication. But even as we are describing this, I suspect our listeners can start to think about, if I described that, you know, we had four boxes each within an image, some would have shapes, some would have curve lines, some would have bright colors, some would have less bright colors, and you are naturally drawn to an image that for whatever reason, draws you there and there is no intellectual reason for that either.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Exactly, and then what people say to me is that that picture that you have selected gives you an anchor, it’s an anchor point to be confident and specific about articulating the feelings around that situation and the insights you have, so you can do it. It goes very quickly. You start talking about important things very fast, and I think it’s also something to do about if you have a white page, you know, how do you start writing? It’s always difficult. The same thing, if you are asked to talk about your situation, you know, tell me more about it. Again, it’s a blank page. Whereas if you have this image as a sort of anchor, it makes it much easier to are talking about things.
Steve Rush: And I suspect then unconsciously, because something been triggered in that conversation. We’ve triggered the conversation. Then it allows you as a coach to then ask additional relevant questions because you’ve got something out early.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Absolutely. And what we also do and what’s important with Lephorus is that we use several sets of images. So, we keep on asking questions, using different types of images. That’s what you saw too Steve, didn’t you?
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: And also, it’s not just any images. These images have been developed. Starting off bound, read your mind, then by us, we now are at the third generation of images because we have learned as we go along, what works in well in certain situation and what works less well. So, it’s very important. The type of image, the family you use, the questions you ask and the type of questions, you have to be very careful with how you word your questions.
Steve Rush: And I suspect if you are not careful, you end up leading people to anchor into an image that they might not naturally migrate towards, right?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Absolutely. And also saying things that they think they should say, because, you know, it’s the way you prompt the way you ask questions about the image to try to get deeper into it. You can’t ask leading questions, that’s clear.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and people learn in lots of different ways. So, if we go back to the core foundations that most of us learn, it’s either visual, auditory. So, we see things, we hear things, we like to touch things that’s kinesthetic. So, what if I’m not naturally visual, will it still have the same effect for me?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: You know, it’s an interesting question. First of all, from the experience, there is no problem. Everybody actually gets this very, very quickly. The only people we’ve had real problems with are those who are actually in the art world or in the design world, because we use images of abstract images. So, they’re immediately trying to get back to, you know, who might have painted that.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: You mentioned images of chairs. They might say, well, who might be the designer of that chair? So, they get into their professional life before they look at the image, just as an image.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Those are the only people who’ve had problems with. It’s interesting, you’re saying this about more visual or more sort of language based. It’s actually been shown that, and that was some recent research carried out in 2017 by Elinor Amit at Harvard Medical School who showed that, in fact, we internally use both sort of language reasoning and visual reason, but it depends on the complexity of the issue at hand, which one we turn to. When the issue is quite simple, we use more language thinking. And when the complexity is increased, we start to go more towards the visual. And that happens with everyone.
Steve Rush: That’s really interesting, isn’t it? Yeah, so particularly when we find ourselves in difficult situations or elements of particular conflict, you found that people using visual metaphors can also unlock some learning in themselves far quicker than if they would do through regular coaching. What’s the reason that happens?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Because It’s yourself, the person itself who is actually finding these insights within themselves, you then move on to actually understanding how you can go forward in a quite different way. You know, if you move towards something, you have to know what would be good and you have to know what would be bad for you. And then you can start building the road.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: From where you are today to where you want to get to, again, using images to show you the different paths you can take. And you then very quickly, very easily get into, right. I can try to do this. I can try to do that. If that doesn’t work, I can move on to this other pathway and so on. So, you get to something very quickly and something practical.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and also from a team and group perspective, this can really also help stimulate conversation in broader teams rather than just individuals as well. And I just wondered what your experience was of that.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Oh yes. Well, I mean, one of the things that people do say also is that this creates, you know, the famous psychological safety.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: You know that Amy Edmondson of Harvard Business School has been talking about for many, many years. Here, were actually seemed to be creating that. And there are two things. One is the ritual. We ask each person of the team, one after the other in silence, choose an image that represents the situation or the issue at hand or whatever. And then to talk to their teammates about this image. And we find that when they do that, people lean in and want to listen to what their colleague is saying. They’re very interested to see which image their colleague chooses. And then to listen to what they’re saying about that image. You then very quickly, have other team members more questions about the image. On fact, for example, saying, well, I chose that image too, but for this and this reason, which is different from yours, and you have a conversation happening again very quickly. And because you’re talking about the image, you’re not talking about the person, it’s becomes nonconfrontational and non-aggressive.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: So, you have an openness in the team that happens very quickly, and which is very constructive.
Steve Rush: And to your point, psychologically safe then, isn’t it? Yeah, like it.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: They say afterwards, I feel as if, you know, I’ve been working with these people for years but after this session, I feel as if I’d been to school with them.
Steve Rush: How fascinating, yeah. So, if I’m a leader listening to this and I’m thinking, great, I’ll just whip myself onto the internet. I’ll download of images, and I’ll try and run this with my team. What’s the danger in doing that? Or is there a danger in doing that?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Well, it depends on what you want to do with it. I mean, there’s something called photolanguage that has been used for very many years in teams, when you start a workshop, for example, and photolanguage is the selection of images to use about 50 images, photos. And it has people in it, it has animals in it, it has as cars, you know, anything. And it’s very useful. If you say at the beginning of the workshop, say, you know, how are you feeling now? Or what do you want to get out of this workshop? Instead of doing the usual flip chart, you know, what are you wanting to get out of this workshop? You do it with this image, and that’s been going on for years and years and that’s useful. However, you don’t get any deeper than that.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: You know, the important thing with the Lephorus is that we have the different types of images for different depths of conversation. We are really digging in, we’re starting at the higher level saying, you know, what’s your situation? What is the situation as a whole? And then we dig down during a workshop, which usually takes about two hours or two and a half hours.
Steve Rush: And your images are scientifically chosen over time through experience and through methodology to make sure that they stimulate the conversation, right?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Yeah, they’ve been chosen through experience. I don’t know about scientifically. But yes, over, you know, over many years, since 2012, we have been working with those images and looking at how they worked in workshops.
Steve Rush: So, if I wanted to dig into visual metaphors, what’s the easiest way for me to kick that off?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Well, our website is a good way to start because there are videos there explaining what metaphors are and how they work. And they’re also courses for coaching and facilitators to learn the techniques. And in a few weeks, there will be an eBook with more background, more theoretical background and so on. So, there’s quite a lot of information there. And then I’d always be happy to talk to anybody about my experience, our experiences and also give examples of what we’ve been doing and the issues that we have been helping organizations face and find solutions too.
Steve Rush: Excellent, and at the end of the show, we’ll make sure we capture how people can connect with you so that they can dive into some of that. But at this part of the show, typically where we turn the tables a little, we’re now going to hack into your leadership mind. So having led a number of different businesses, lots of different international experiences, I’m really keen to dive in and hack into your leadership mind. So, if you had to think about your life’s work and distill that down to your top three leadership hacks, what would they be?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Right. Well, I think the first one is that it is not about being a leader of, for me, it’s being a leader with, so it’s about walking together, walking side by side with a team. And I find that important because there is an intelligence in a team. There’s an intelligence in an organization that we often don’t take account off.
Steve Rush: Okay.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Number two, if you do work in that way, you know, rather than being a leader with, it’s very important that wherever you are, the top management, actually agrees with this because if that’s not the case, and you do listen to the intelligence of the team and you then are not able to take account of that, then that’s worse than not listening in the first place. I’ve seen that happening. We have been working in organizations where we actually have walked away because we had to say, no, this is counterproductive. If we don’t act on the intelligence of the organization that is destructive rather than constructive.
Steve Rush: Definitely.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Numbers, three. Unforce humor is important, has an important place. So that’s why I really like when we are running these workshops that those early banter, you know, people laugh a bit about the images, about the things that’s being said. And then very quickly when they realize that important things are coming out, it becomes serious, but there is banter and laughter and I think that’s important.
Steve Rush: It also unlocks the chemicals in the brain to allow that deeper thinking and trust also comes about as a result of that, doesn’t it?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Yeah, that’s right. And I think, you know, if we can have more unforce humor in organizations in general, we’d all be happier.
Steve Rush: Definitely, yeah. Next part of the show, we’ve affectionately called Hack to Attack. This is where something hasn’t worked out, it may have been pretty catastrophic, but at the time you took some learning from it and it’s now a force of good for you in your work on life. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Well, I told you that I’ve been moving from one job to another and into and out of different countries. And of course, that can feel very risky and scary. But I must say that at the end, every time it’s actually produced something very good, but for me and my family, even in places or in circumstances, when I’ve been asked to leave an organization, which is never an easy place to be in, with hindsight, that’s been a good thing. And I’ve seen other people in similar situations thinking that their world has had ended. And in fact, this was actually an opening for something new, something different. So yes, it’s scary. But I have learned that it’s actually, usually very positive in the end.
Steve Rush: It’s that moment, isn’t it? That you make a call that either something is scary or alluring and it’s a very fine line, isn’t it? Last part of the show, we get to give you some time travel. You get to bump into Kirsten at 21 and give us some advice. What would your words of wisdom be to her then?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Right. Well, I’m naturally quite introverted and I would advise myself at the time to be kind to myself because I tried to be something I wasn’t, I tried to be extrovert because I thought that was the way to be.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: And I’ve learned over many years that it’s better to accept what you are and then to find ways of doing what you want to do, but in that context. So, for example, I go to networking events, but I allow myself to leave 30 minutes. So, it’s those little things to be kind to yourself, not to stop yourself doing things because they are, you know, you’re worried about them, whatever, but find ways of working it so that it fits with who you are. I have to say that if I’d said that to myself, age 21, I wouldn’t have been listening.
Steve Rush: That’s the other thing, isn’t it? With hindsight. I reflect back on the same question to me. That’s been asked many times and at 21, gosh, I was a very different individual and a different framing. If only we could listen to ourselves at 21, our life may have been a bit more seamless.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Perhaps.
Steve Rush: But who knows? Then we wouldn’t have had those learning experiences either, right?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Exactly. I was going to say you need those bumps.
Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely, so. So beyond today, what’s the best way we can connect our audience to your firm and to you through the work that you do?
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Well, our website is visualmetaphorsatwork.com. It’s a bit of a mouthful. But as I said, lots of information there, I’m also active on LinkedIn. So, you can connect with me through that. During the last year, I’ve discovered that I like doing videos during the pandemic, last two years during the pandemic. I really like doing videos. So, we’ll soon have a presence on YouTube as well. Particularly describing case studies from our clients. So, you know, guest contact me via LinkedIn or the website, and I can then give you updates on where things will appear that you might find of interest.
Steve Rush: Super, and we’ll make sure all of those links are in our show notes. So, folks can literally head over soon as they’ve listened to this and click in and find you.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Thank you.
Steve Rush: So, Kerstin, thank you for coming on our show. I am really delighted that we’ve been able to showcase your work and my experience have been coached by you. And in hope that others will also find that visual metaphors can really unlock their experiences at work. So, thank you for coming on our podcast and thank you for sharing what you do.
Dr. Kerstin Potter: Thank you for having me.
Steve Rush: Thanks Kerstin.
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