Martine Kalaw is the author of The ABC’s of Diversity, she’s a speaker and DEI consultant helping individuals and organizations overcome unconscious beliefs and implicit bias.
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Find out more about Martine below:
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: We all know that telling stories is a great leadership skill. So today I’m going to have a go. Once upon a time there was a beautiful kingdom ruled by a Prince. He took over the kingdom after the death of his father, the King, after a few months of ruling, the kingdom things started testing. There was no rain. Drought had brought losses to farmers and killed many animals, birds, and precious plants in the forest. It was followed by an unknown disease that caused loss of many lives. After a few months of pain, things started to improve gradually, but before they could recover completely, an enemy took over the kingdom, killing many people and imprisoning them. The young King managed to escape. He planned to meet his childhood friend, a King of a neighboring kingdom. On his way he was thinking about the past. He was born to be bred King of this powerful and wealthy nation.
Now he’s lost everything. He believed that he was cursed because nothing had happened to his father. It had only happened to him. When he reached the neighboring kingdom, and he met his friends. The guards did not allow him to pass because he looked dirty, and bedraggled. He tried many times to get access to the kingdom but failed miserably. Being cast outside the kingdom, he eventually took a job so he could buy food and clothes. Several weeks had passed and he’d now earned enough and ate enough. So, they allowed him to look presentable. So, he set off in a chance to get through the guards and to meet with his friend. After carefully navigating the guards and entering the kingdom. He was greeted warmly by his friend, the King of the neighboring kingdom, after explaining the sad story and things that had happened to him.
The King took pity and ordered his people to give him a herd of a hundred sheep. While grateful, the King was a little surprised as it was expecting much more than just a hundred cheap. He was a King after all. He doesn’t want to be a shepherd. Down on his luck. He realized there was no way out. After a few days of grazing his herd, group of wolves attacked his herd and killed all of them. And while the wolves were merely feasting on this new herd, the king ran away. He returned to his only allied at this time, his friend, the King from the neighboring kingdom. This time he gave 50 sheep in pity. But once again, he failed to protect the walls. He returned for a third time, and this time the King gave him 25 sheep with a clear message of, there are no more sheep.
And this time the young King decided if he didn’t protect his herd, he knew that he would be on his downers. So, this time he took a different approach. He examined the environment. He understood where the wolves were living, the areas where they would attack. He built additional fences and guards around the herd to protect them. He set up a schedule to monitor those key places and key times when he knew that the wolves would be most active, a few years had passed, and its herd had grown into a thousand sheep. His activities were monitored by his friend, the King and in recognition of his great feat in growing a herd, his friend had ordered his ministers to give him a whole state to rule. He asked his friend, why did you not give me the state to rule when I first come to help you? His friend, the King replied. The first time you came for me for help. Your mindset was like you were born and bred to be a leader. You were expectant. And the truth was far from it.
The King went on to say, you may have been born with wealth, pride, and power, but you have never had proper education and training to lead your people. So, when I gave you the herd, I wanted you to learn how to manage and lead others. Dear friend, I have seen you suffer, return, be resilient, work out a plan. And now I believe you’re ready to lead. The moral of the story and leadership hack if you like, is that, just being born into a powerful family or being born with privileges, doesn’t mean you’ll be successful. Being a manager or leading people in higher position does not make you a leader. Being in charge, such as a King or a Manager or a CEO does not make you a leader. Holding position is just a position. Leadership is a behavior and leadership is a service. The most important role of a leader is to build and develop other leaders. That’s been The Leadership Hacker News. Let’s dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Martine Kalaw is a special guest on today’s show. She’s an author, speaker and DEI consultant. She’s the founder of Martine Kalaw Enterprises and her firm offers strategy development, implementation, and education, and helps organizations overcome unconscious beliefs and implicit biases. Martine also published her second book, The ABCs of Diversity. Martine, welcome to the show.
Martine Kalaw: Thank you so much for having me, Steve. I’m excited to be here
Steve Rush: Now, you have a most fascinating backstory. There are not many people that you can say. I understand how that is because there’s not many people would understand your position. Just tell us a little bit about that backstory and how that’s really given you the passion to do what you do?
Martine Kalaw: Yeah, certainly. Born in Zambia from the Democratic Republic of Congo. My mother and biological fathers were from there and having been raised in the U.S. but having spent seven years of my life as an undocumented immigrant and stateless individual in the United States in removal or deportation proceedings for seven years has really shaped the work that I do around DEI, in the years that I, you know, navigated through. One being orphaned, two, being undocumented, three, being stateless. I was exposed to various communities. I actually had to, you know, I had to learn how to pivot into different communities as I navigated the world on my own. And so, what this taught me was to, it gave me a different perspective on how people show up and view different circumstances.
It also gave me a level of sensitivity in how to and putting myself in somebody else’s shoes and trying to see things from their perspective. And so, for that reason, I feel like I can be a bridge builder in a lot of ways across different communities. I also knew from my experience of being undocumented and stateless, I also understand the importance of having individuals invest in you rather than help you when you’re marginalized, right. When your part of an underrepresented community, that’s how we actually strengthen our communities, how we strengthen our workforce, is when individuals who have access recognize the access that they have and, or privileged, and some people are not comfortable with that word and then extend that to others and bring them in and do it in a way that’s not charity like, and they’re not positioning themselves as saviors, but really they’re investing in others because they know they’re also gaining something back. And in that way, we strengthened our communities. And so that was the experience I had as an undocumented immigrant and stateless person was setting it up so others can invest in me. And then once I, you know, navigated through my journey. Sharing that and passing that forward to my mentees and other people within undocumented stateless community, but then tying it into the larger conversation of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and I guess what you’ve really described is so extreme in its diverse experience, but to your point, gives you that sensitivity to be able to be really thoughtful in your approach, right?
Martine Kalaw: Right, absolutely. And just having seen, and just the intricacies of bias and discrimination in various facets. I mean, people don’t necessarily think about immigration, and you know, statelessness and think of diversity, equity and inclusion, but it’s a subset of it.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Martine Kalaw: And certainly, it’s nuanced. I mean, we can see that with, you know, the war in Ukraine and we saw the response and how different communities of African immigrants, how they were treated, Moroccan immigrants. We saw that, right. We see that time and time, again in the policies that are enacted around immigration in the U.S. based on different subgroups within immigrants, you know construct. So, in that way DEI is a subset of immigration. Immigration is a subset of DEI, so, it can be a microcosm for the larger conversation around diversity equity and inclusion.
Steve Rush: And diversity also transcends lots of different religions, colors, and creeds, doesn’t it? It’s not just about, you know, an atypical perspective somebody might have when they join a firm. What’s your take on we pet peel, the layers back, diversity in its simplest terms?
Martine Kalaw: Diversity is about variety, right. And representation across variety of different groups, different backgrounds. So, in its simplest term, diversity is offering and embracing variety. Now variety, when we talk about diversity, I like to break it down into three different buckets, right. There’s the physical biological bucket in terms of defining diversity. And that can be, you know, that’s race, gender, race, it can be age, you know, all of the elements or subcategories of diversity that has to do with somebody’s physical definers and their biological, right?
Steve Rush: Right.
Martine Kalaw: Sexual orientation. And then the second bucket that I you know, I group diversity into is, cultural. So cultural can look like a number of things. It could be nationality. It can be your marital status. It can be your education background. It could be your socioeconomic status, right? So that’s cultural. And then the third category especially within the work or business context is really around business. The culture or the persona you bring into the business. So, some people are introverts, some people are extroverts. You know, some people are more strategic in the way they show up to work. Some individuals are less strategic, you know, they’re big picture thinkers or there, you know, detail oriented. So, these are the different categories, these three different buckets or categories, and they are interrelated. There are correlations between one bucket, right. The business persona that you bring into the workplace is influenced by your culture, the cultural, you know, associations you’re a part of. And then that can be influenced by biological, you know, physical. And so, another way of saying it is, look, you know, as a black, you know, African woman in the United States right, these are some of the physical, you know, being black and African are some of the physical you know, associations that I’m a part of.
So culturally, you know, perhaps if I grew up in a community where it was predominantly you know, black and predominantly African immigrants, right. That might influence how I show up in the workplace. If I go to work and everyone else doesn’t look like me, everyone else ends up being white. And I’m the only African immigrant. It might actually influence my communication style. Because I’m responding right to the experiences I have and I’m responding to my outward environment. So that’s how these three categories or buckets can be related or correlated.
Steve Rush: The interesting thing that you just shared is a perfect example of how diversity can be seen different and that’s where equity comes in, isn’t it?
Martine Kalaw: Right.
Steve Rush: Tell us a bit about that?
Martine Kalaw: Yeah, so, I’ll say, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion. I feel strongly that they are like a three-legged stool. You can’t have one without the other. So certainly, you can have variety and representation, but that’s not enough to keep people, right. You can have, you know, you have the representation, but if people aren’t treated fairly, right. Equity is really about fairness. It’s about distribution. If people aren’t treated fairly and they’re not given the same equitable opportunities, then why would they stay? What would be their incentive? I like to distinguish equity from equality, because people say, oh, well, you know, equity is about equality. It’s actually not right.
Steve Rush: No, it’s not. And that’s where people get confused, right?
Martine Kalaw: Right, equality is what we’re aiming for after we reach equity. But right now, across the globe, I mean, you know, this is not just specific to the U.S. or the UK or any one place, but across the globe, what we know is that there are different communities, they’re different ethnic groups, they’re different races and not everyone has had the same history in their country and have had the same access. In the U.S. we can see that because the history of slavery in the U.S. that was so prominent has made it, so, there have been systemic inequities in the workplace, in education, all of that has been the trickle effect from slavery, right. And as a result of that, it’s still trickles. It’s still there. It’s still, you know, and so what happens is people show up in the workplace and they don’t have the same experiences.
They don’t have the same access, right. someone who has grown up with certain privileges, access to certain academic institutions, access to certain you know, in a higher echelon of socioeconomic status, right. Might show up in the workplace with a different level of acumen, right. To the business and feel more comfortable navigating the workplace, feel more comfortable looking for a mentor, reaching out to the C-Suite Executives and asking for them to be a mentor and also feel more comfortable showing up in spaces. Like, you know, work off offsite events, right. Like lots of work offsite events, at least historically were like you know, usually they’re sports events, they’re, you know, happy hour, golf events, what have you. So, if you come from a space where you’re familiar with that, it’s easy for you to just an acclimate to that. If you come from a space where you didn’t have access to that, it’s a lot harder for you to navigate that space in the workplace and create more accessibility for yourself. And so that’s where equity comes in. It’s having the organization find ways to create that level of fairness. So, the best visual that actually someone shared with me, an anecdote is, you know, equality is giving everybody a pair of shoes, a pair of sneakers, let’s say. Equity is giving everyone a pair of sneakers that fit their feet.
Steve Rush: It’s a great analogy. Love it. So, the workplace has changed over the last few years with the pandemic and our approaches and responses to that. How do you see that that’s impacted on how firms are dealing with DEI now?
Martine Kalaw: Yes, that’s a really great question. So, what I’ve seen is in the last two years, so prior to the murder of George Floyd, because I really think that’s what sparked this new, you know, movement across organizations, quite frankly, globally, before that it’s not that diversity, equity and inclusion didn’t exist. It did. But at that, you know, before that it was really focused on diversity, right.
Steve Rush: Right.
Martine Kalaw: It was focused on diversity and there was less of an emphasis on equity, less of an emphasis on inclusion. This is generally speaking. And you know, when you look at the numbers and the statistics in the workplace, white women were the prime beneficiaries of those diversity initiatives, right. And so then, two and a half years ago with, you know, the murder of George Floyd, things shifted, there was a greater awareness that whoa, you know, there’s a lot of inequity, that’s still trickling into the workplace, right. That’s happening nationally, but it’s trickling into the workplace because the same people that are in, you know, that are in society are also going into work, right. So, we can’t distinguish these two, these two worlds collide and that’s in the workplace. And so initially organizations, again, generally speaking, were responsive or reactive to what was happening, right. There was a level of reaction because employees or staff members were hypersensitive and hyper aware, right. And almost like daring the organization to do something, fix this. So, organizations generally speaking were reactive and trying to like quickly fix things and quell the concerns of their employees, right. The responses with that with, a lot of programs, let’s come up with programs, let’s give money to this organization. Let’s have an internship program and bring, you know, look at interns from certain colleges and universities that we wouldn’t have looked at before, at least in the U.S., historically black colleges and universities, HBCUs, right.
Things like that, very reactive. So that’s not a bad thing because I think the programming was important, but the thing is, there are two issues with that. When you have program without strategy, it’s really hard to sustain the initiative. And when you don’t have strategy, it’s hard to position what you’re doing as a real business imperative, right. It doesn’t seem like a business structure. It seems more of like something you’re just slapping on a band aid, and you know, wanting to move on. So that was the first challenge. The second was the fact that the same people were doing the work, we’re being charged to do the work, mainly human resources professionals who don’t always have the experience or the expertise. They are also oftentimes already overburdened by their workload. They were being charged with the responsibility of doing this work. As well as, you know, employee resource groups, basically employees who are part of underrepresented communities or are allies, right. So, the same individuals we’re being charged with this responsibility, right. And that’s exhausting. It also means that everyone else wasn’t as involved. And what we know is that if not everyone is bought into an initiative, it’s not going to work, right. You need leadership’s involvement; you need manager’s involvement. So that’s really where we are at the moment. And the organizations that really want to do the real work are reaching out to consultants like myself, they’re reaching out to others, right. They’re bringing in chief diversity officers and saying, look, we want to go beyond just the performative and you know, with programs, we want to have strategy.
We want to have our leadership involved in this. We want DEI to be positioned as part of the business strategy. We want to be able to tie metrics to things, right. We want to be able to connect our programs with a larger initiative so we can scale these programs. So that’s where we are now, right. So not just about training and programs, training is great, but training has to be reinforced with strategy. So that’s where we are now where organizations are at this, impasse where they can either keep doing what they’re doing and being you know I guess their employees are feeling impatient and are putting the pressure on them or they can actually start to really build strategy and make DEI part of their business structure.
Steve Rush: And let’s be realistic here as well. Those businesses aren’t, are also missing out, not on just massive opportunities to unlock human potential, but there’s also a direct correlation to return on investment too, isn’t there?
Martine Kalaw: That’s it. I always talk about the ROI of DEI. And so that is, one of the very first things that I do in working with organizations is, especially if I’m working with human resources, professionals, not directly with the like the, you know, CEO is getting that HR professional to identify what that return on investment is so that they can position it to the leadership, right. Discussing ROI is the common denominator. The challenge that we’ve had historically with DEI is, certainly there’s an emotional quotient component to it. That’s the most significant component. Stories, people’s experiences, experiences of employees and how they felt marginalized. The biases they may have experienced, that is critical. But when we start with that approach, what we end up doing is, we exclude indirectly and unintentionally. Exclude anyone who doesn’t understand that. Who cannot relate to this story, right.
Steve Rush: Right.
Martine Kalaw: People feel either shamed or blamed or they just don’t get it. So, they tune out, right. And then again, we’re just reaching to the cryer, the same people who have the issue are the same people engaged in these conversations. So that’s why I always recommend starting with return on investment, let’s look at the value that DEI can bring to the organization. Let’s look at the numbers. Like let’s actually find what that metric is. If your business to business, business to consumer organization, there is a possibility, there’s always a possibility of increasing market share. There are certain markets we have not considered if we’re providing a service or a product, right. And so that is where DEI can actually help. If you educate your salespeople and they are much more savvy and they’re representative of a larger group of individuals. There’s more representation in your salespeople let’s say, or if they have more sensitivity in navigating DEI, then they’re more likely, they’ll know how to reach and look for new markets, right.
Explore markets they haven’t considered. And once we’ve attracted those markets, it’s building those relationships, that rapport with those markets. So that’s one way, for example, that a business to consumer organization can benefit. Revenue wise, ROI wise from DEI. When we talk about business to business, same idea in terms of retention, in terms of building those relationships and attracting new partners, right. I mean, if you’re business to business, think about the clients that your partners or that business you’re supporting, think about who their clients are, think about who their customers are. And if we’re supporting them, we also need to understand their clientele. We also need to help them or support them in reaching a larger market share. We also need to make sure that we’re able to create more diversity in our partners, right. So, these are ways in which we can actually measure ROI. We can look at the retention of our partners. We can look at recruiting and gaining more partners. And what does that mean in terms of our dollars? So, there are direct correlations between DEI and return on investment. And what I encourage is for organizations to start there, start with that number, start with what the cost, right. What we think the estimated cost of bringing in a chief diversity officer, bringing in a consultant, you know, doing this work might cost. And then let’s talk about what the potential return could look like.
Steve Rush: Yeah, love it. Now you wrote the book, The ABCs of Diversity.
Martine Kalaw: Yes.
Steve Rush: Let’s quickly just spin through the ABCs and dive into a couple of them.
Martine Kalaw: Yeah, I mean, the ABCs is kind of what I, I alluded to this a little bit earlier, which was, a lot of the work is dumped on human resources and I use the word dumped intentionally, because that’s how it feels like, right. It feels like a burden to them, to them and sometimes employee resource groups or diversity, task forces, because these are individuals that don’t always have the expertise. They can come to this from a very emotional standpoint. And so, it’s really unfair to expect them to have all of the responsibility around DEI. So, the ABCs of diversity, by the way, the subtitle is a manager’s guide to diversity, equity, and inclusion in the new workplace. So really what this book really encapsulates are two main things. One is that when we approach the conversation of DEI, we make it sometimes over complicated, right.
It’s very ethereal. There’s a lot of jargon. A lot of you know politically correct terms and people are so afraid of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing, that they’d rather disengage and not involve themselves in DEI conversations. But what I want people to understand is that, okay, we don’t have to focus so much on the jargon, the terminology, it’s really the fundamental practices, the fundamental things that we do. And a lot of it can be driven by managers. So, when we think about who shapes and influences the makeup of an organization, there are two main groups, human resources, and managers, managers influence hiring decisions. They influence compensation decisions. They influence promotion decisions. They influence attrition when people decide to leave, right. All of that is influenced by managers and they’re working in tandem with human resources.
So, what we get to do is pivot our lens when we look at all those elements, those foundational elements of being a manager and consider how we can have more representation and less bias in these different areas, right. And so that doesn’t require learning all this terminology and jargon. It just requires thinking a little bit more broadly. So, for example, as hiring managers, one of the things we can do differently, we’re looking at resumes is, asking our talent acquisition or recruiting team. I’m seeing like a lot of similarities across these resumes. Like it seems like all of these individuals are from the same region. This is just me speaking, hypothetically. Is there a possibility that we can look at other resumes more broadly? Can we look at other resumes or can we look at candidates from other regions? right.
This is just a small way as hiring managers, we’re looking at, we’re interviewing candidates and we immediately feel we have this affinity bias, right. Where we have a preference for someone because, oh, they went to this college and you’ve heard of this college, or you’re familiar with this college. Well, what we can do is, manages go, oh, wait a minute. I’m picking up on the fact that, you know, I feel more, you know, I have this affinity, this person, just because of what I’m seeing on the resume, let me then assume, what if every other candidate went to the same college, right. Let’s rule out. Let’s take that one scenario or that one qualifier out. And let’s focus on all the other, whether the candidates who actually can do the job, right. And when we’re interviewing candidates, let’s see how we can be consistent in the way, the order in which we ask questions.
Let’s also invite other people on our teams to interview these candidates, right. And when they are interviewing candidates to avoid influence, influencing our decision, let’s have, you know, the other people are interviewing candidates, our candidates. Just share their feedback to the talent acquisition team rather than to us, right. And we don’t actually hear, or, you know, know what they’re thinking until the end, after we’ve made our decision on how we feel about the candidates. So, these are things that we can do as managers. Another example of creating, establishing inclusion as a manager or equity is mentorship, right. So, as you know, a lot of organizations, some organizations don’t have formal mentorship programs. And as I mentioned, based on your background, some people might come into a company and feel really comfortable looking for a mentor. They might be invited to certain spaces like golf events, like a happy hour, where they will engage and build relationships and then ask someone to be their mentor.
What I can say is not everyone has that familiarity or that confidence, not everyone is invited to the same events in the same spaces in the workplace. So as a manager, what we can do is, we can establish a way to make sure that everyone on our team has access to a mentor. We can invite mentors to come to our meetings, invite our senior leadership, to come to our weekly meetings or biweekly meetings with our teams and let people know that, you know, make sure everyone on the team understands that, you know, you can access and reach out to this person if you need a mentor, right. These are subtle things that we do to create equity, right. Create fairness, accessibility. So that’s the ABCs of DEI, right. Its common knowledge. Things that we’re already doing as managers, but we just don’t realize that this is actually reinforcing DEI, right.
And it’s natural. It’s much more organic than thinking, okay, I have to put on my DEI hat, and you know, I have to use this specific terminology. So that’s really what the ABCs of DEI is. And it’s really meant to be a workbook, you know? So, when you open it up, it really actually is a primer. It reads like a workshop, like you’re in a workshop. And at the end of each chapter, it’s 150 pages, not long. At the end of each chapter, there are two takeaway exercises. One is for self-reflection and the other is something you can take back to your team and implement as a manager. So, there’s actual application.
Steve Rush: Awesome. Now we’re going to give folk a chance to get hold of a copy or find out how they can get hold of a copy in a moment. So, I’m going to flip the lens very quickly, do some quick, short fire, top leadership hacks. What be your top three leadership hacks?
Martine Kalaw: My top three leadership hacks would be you know, one is, to be transparent and vulnerable, right. I would just combine those two. Transparency. I mean, as leaders, we can’t be completely transparent with everything, but at least walk people through why you’re doing what you’re doing. They’ll appreciate it more. They feel like what they’re doing, adds value to the end goal. So being able to be transparent in that way and being vulnerable. If you have challenges, if you have issues, things aren’t going the way that you ideally wanted them to. It’s okay to share that with your team as a leader because what they’re observing is how you respond to it, the solutions, your problem-solving abilities, that becomes an example for them.
So that’s one leadership hack. Another leadership hack for me would be to find people who are smarter than you, to be, you know, part of your team. You know, I think as leaders, sometimes we’re afraid that somebody’s going to outshine us, but really what we want to do is bring people who have skills that we don’t have, because what that ends up carrying us, if they grow, we grow, right. And so, I do believe that’s a really important one that I’ve always you know, believed in and it’s really been beneficial to me. And the third leadership hack would be, I have to think about this one. I would say, always be on quest to learn. So maybe that’s more humility or just always learn. As leaders, we can never know enough. We’re always learning, learn from our team members. The people who report into us. Learn across the board, pick up a book, read. There’s always something we can learn as leaders, right. And so as long as we show up in our role as leaders in that way. We’re always going to continue to grow and be better than who we were the day before.
Steve Rush: Awesome advice. Now you shared the biggest Hack to Attack that we’ve ever heard, which is your story up front, but if you could give yourself some advice when you were 21, what would that be?
Martine Kalaw: Ah, that’s a great one. If I could give myself advice when I was 21 was to, trust the process, right. Meaning like, I’m a little bit of a magical thinker in a sense that, you know, if you take action and you do everything that you need to do, sometimes things just need to kind of work themselves out, right. Kind of like everything has to sort of be synchronous, and it takes a little bit of time. And I think that’s something that, you know, millennials, you know, Gen Z, like, you know, there’s sometimes a level of impatience right, with things. And so sometimes, you know, put all the pieces together, do your part and then give it a little bit of time, right. For things to come together. So, trust the process a little bit.
Steve Rush: That’s great, and that’s definitely been the case for you. You’ve a perfect walking example of that. So, thank you so much. So, Martine, conscious, we want to make sure we can get our guests to connect with you beyond today. Find out a little bit about the books that you’ve written and maybe buy a copy. Where’s the best place to send them?
Martine Kalaw: Perfect. you can go directly to martinekalaw.com, http://www.martinekalaw.com. And when you go there, you’ll have access to the link from my book, which is on Amazon. So, you can purchase the hard copy and you can also purchase the audio book on audible. So, if you go to my website, it’ll give you the link to both of those sites. And certainly, on my website, you also have access to sign up for my complimentary, otherwise known as free master class, which is coming up on July 21st. I usually have a monthly one-hour monthly masterclass where I really work with human resources professionals. And I offer them the five things that they can do within the next 90 days to really drive DEI in their organizations.
Steve Rush: Awesome.
Martine Kalaw: And so that’s something that you can sign up for if you go to my website.
Steve Rush: We’ll also put those links in our show notes as well. Martine, I wish you had more time to chat. I really love chatting to. You’re such a great advocate of doing exactly what’s right for folk when it’s right. So, thank you ever so much for taking time out of your super busy schedule, being with us on our Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Martine Kalaw: Thank you so much, Steve. I enjoyed it too.
Steve Rush: Thank you, Martine.
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